1 | Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) |
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2 | To: Marc Lehmann <rxvt@schmorp.de> |
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3 | Message-Id: <09721773-3FFE-467A-9C04-2EADAAEE5026@macports.org> |
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4 | Content-Type: multipart/mixed; |
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5 | boundary=Apple-Mail-80--1058830383 |
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6 | From: Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org> |
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7 | Subject: rxvt-unicode make install on Mac OS X/case-insensitive filesystems |
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8 | Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:34:32 -0600 |
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9 | |
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10 | |
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11 | --Apple-Mail-80--1058830383 |
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12 | Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit |
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13 | Content-Type: text/plain; |
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14 | charset=US-ASCII; |
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15 | delsp=yes; |
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16 | format=flowed |
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17 | |
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18 | Hello! |
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19 | |
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20 | rxvt-unicode's "make install" does not work on case-insensitive |
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21 | filesystems, like the one that most Mac OS X users use, because there |
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22 | is a file in your distribution called "INSTALL" which "make" tries to |
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23 | make, instead of installing: |
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24 | |
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25 | make: `install' is up to date. |
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26 | |
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27 | You can fix this by marking "install" as a phony target. You may as |
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28 | well mark all your other phony targets too, for clarity. |
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29 | |
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30 | The attached patch is what we're using in MacPorts to work around |
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31 | this problem; you could apply it to your sources so Mac users not |
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32 | using MacPorts, and other users of case-insensitive filesystems, can |
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33 | benefit too. |
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34 | |
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35 | -Ryan Schmidt, for the MacPorts Project |
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36 | |
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37 | |
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38 | |
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39 | --Apple-Mail-80--1058830383 |
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40 | Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit |
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41 | Content-Type: application/octet-stream; |
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42 | x-mac-type=54455854; |
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43 | x-unix-mode=0644; |
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44 | name=patch-Makefile.in.diff |
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45 | Content-Disposition: attachment; |
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46 | filename=patch-Makefile.in.diff |
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47 | |
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48 | --- Makefile.in 2008-02-22 10:32:28.000000000 -0600 |
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49 | +++ Makefile.in 2008-11-10 16:25:02.000000000 -0600 |
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50 | @@ -32,6 +32,8 @@ |
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51 | |
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52 | RECURSIVE_TARGETS = all allbin alldoc tags clean distclean realclean install |
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53 | |
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54 | +.PHONY: Makefiles all allbin alldoc check clean distclean distclean-local distdir install realclean tags tar.bz2 tar.gz |
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55 | + |
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56 | #------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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57 | |
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58 | $(RECURSIVE_TARGETS): |
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59 | |
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60 | --Apple-Mail-80--1058830383-- |
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61 | |
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62 | |
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63 | |
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64 | ============================================================================ |
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65 | |
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66 | |
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67 | |
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68 | Return-path: <root@schmorp.de> |
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69 | X-Envelope-To: macports@ryandesign.com |
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70 | X-AuditID: 11fe0d0a-a8314bb000000ef3-09-4918f7f2993b |
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71 | Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 04:11:42 +0100 |
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72 | From: Marc Lehmann <schmorp@schmorp.de> |
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73 | To: Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org> |
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74 | Subject: Re: rxvt-unicode make install on Mac OS X/case-insensitive filesystems |
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75 | Message-ID: <20081111031142.GA2695@schmorp.de> |
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76 | References: <09721773-3FFE-467A-9C04-2EADAAEE5026@macports.org> |
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77 | MIME-Version: 1.0 |
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78 | Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii |
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79 | Content-Disposition: inline |
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80 | In-Reply-To: <09721773-3FFE-467A-9C04-2EADAAEE5026@macports.org> |
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81 | X-PGP: "1024D/DA743396 1999-01-26 Marc Alexander Lehmann <schmorp@schmorp.de> |
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82 | Key fingerprint = 475A FE9B D1D4 039E 01AC C217 A1E8 0270 DA74 3396" |
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83 | |
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84 | On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 04:34:32PM -0600, Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org> wrote: |
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85 | > rxvt-unicode's "make install" does not work on case-insensitive |
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86 | > filesystems, |
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87 | |
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88 | rxvt-unicode is designed for POSIX systems only, I cannot support |
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89 | non-posix systems at this time. |
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90 | |
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91 | > You can fix this by marking "install" as a phony target. |
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92 | |
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93 | There is no bug, so how can there be anything to fix? |
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94 | |
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95 | -- |
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96 | The choice of a Deliantra, the free code+content MORPG |
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97 | -----==- _GNU_ http://www.deliantra.net |
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98 | ----==-- _ generation |
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99 | ---==---(_)__ __ ____ __ Marc Lehmann |
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100 | --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / pcg@goof.com |
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101 | -=====/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ |
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102 | |
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103 | |
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104 | |
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105 | ============================================================================ |
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106 | |
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107 | |
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108 | |
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109 | Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) |
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110 | In-Reply-To: <20081111031142.GA2695@schmorp.de> |
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111 | References: <09721773-3FFE-467A-9C04-2EADAAEE5026@macports.org> <20081111031142.GA2695@schmorp.de> |
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112 | Content-Type: text/plain; |
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113 | charset=US-ASCII; |
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114 | delsp=yes; |
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115 | format=flowed |
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116 | Message-Id: <E537420B-EB90-4359-B2DE-85A8B79429B8@macports.org> |
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117 | Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit |
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118 | From: Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org> |
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119 | Subject: Re: rxvt-unicode make install on Mac OS X/case-insensitive filesystems |
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120 | Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:01:44 -0600 |
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121 | To: Marc Lehmann <schmorp@schmorp.de> |
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122 | |
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123 | |
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124 | On Nov 10, 2008, at 21:11, Marc Lehmann wrote: |
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125 | |
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126 | > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 04:34:32PM -0600, Ryan Schmidt wrote: |
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127 | > |
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128 | >> rxvt-unicode's "make install" does not work on case-insensitive |
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129 | >> filesystems, |
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130 | > |
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131 | > rxvt-unicode is designed for POSIX systems only, I cannot support |
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132 | > non-posix systems at this time. |
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133 | > |
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134 | >> You can fix this by marking "install" as a phony target. |
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135 | > |
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136 | > There is no bug, so how can there be anything to fix? |
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137 | |
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138 | Ah! Sorry, we seem to have gotten off to a bad start. I didn't mean |
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139 | to upset you or disparage your software. I merely wanted to point out |
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140 | that it does not build on case-insensitive filesystems out of the |
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141 | box, and the simple fix to make it work. Mac OS X is the second most |
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142 | popular operating system in the world [1], behind Windows, so it is a |
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143 | good idea for you to support its default filesystem. I don't know |
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144 | much about what is or is not POSIX, but Apple says Mac OS X Leopard |
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145 | is an Open Brand UNIX 03 Registered Product, conforming to the SUSv3 |
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146 | and POSIX 1003.1 specifications [2]. Since Windows is not POSIX, that |
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147 | makes Mac OS X the most popular POSIX operating system in the world. |
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148 | Besides, indicating your phony targets is a recommended Makefile |
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149 | practice anyway (it improves performance) [3]. |
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150 | |
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151 | -Ryan Schmidt, for the MacPorts project |
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152 | |
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153 | |
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154 | [1] http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8 |
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155 | |
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156 | [2] http://www.apple.com/macosx/technology/unix.html |
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157 | |
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158 | [3] http://www.gnu.org/software/automake/manual/make/Phony-Targets.html |
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159 | |
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160 | |
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161 | |
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162 | ============================================================================ |
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163 | |
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164 | |
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165 | |
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166 | Return-path: <root@schmorp.de> |
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167 | X-Envelope-To: macports@ryandesign.com |
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168 | X-AuditID: 11fe0d0b-a9aa3bb000000ef0-45-4919893d25b8 |
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169 | Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:31:38 +0100 |
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170 | From: Marc Lehmann <schmorp@schmorp.de> |
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171 | To: Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org> |
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172 | Subject: Re: rxvt-unicode make install on Mac OS X/case-insensitive |
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173 | filesystems |
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174 | Message-ID: <20081111133138.GA3121@schmorp.de> |
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175 | References: <09721773-3FFE-467A-9C04-2EADAAEE5026@macports.org> <20081111031142.GA2695@schmorp.de> <E537420B-EB90-4359-B2DE-85A8B79429B8@macports.org> |
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176 | MIME-Version: 1.0 |
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177 | Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii |
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178 | Content-Disposition: inline |
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179 | In-Reply-To: <E537420B-EB90-4359-B2DE-85A8B79429B8@macports.org> |
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180 | X-PGP: "1024D/DA743396 1999-01-26 Marc Alexander Lehmann |
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181 | <schmorp@schmorp.de> Key fingerprint = 475A FE9B D1D4 039E |
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182 | 01AC C217 A1E8 0270 DA74 3396" |
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183 | |
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184 | > simple fix to make it work. Mac OS X is the second most popular operating |
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185 | > system in the world [1], |
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186 | |
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187 | apple is atcively hurtign free sofwtare, I see no reason to waste additional |
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188 | time to help them. |
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189 | |
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190 | > behind Windows, so it is a good idea for you to |
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191 | > support its default filesystem. |
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192 | |
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193 | That is very faulty logic. |
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194 | |
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195 | > I don't know much about what is or is not POSIX, but Apple says Mac OS X |
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196 | > Leopard is an Open Brand UNIX 03 Registered Product, conforming to the |
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197 | > SUSv3 and POSIX 1003.1 specifications [2]. |
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198 | |
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199 | Then there is no issue with urxvt, as POSIX *requires* a case-sensitive |
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200 | filesystem. |
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201 | |
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202 | So much for marketing bullshit from apple, OS X is as much posix as |
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203 | windows (which also claims posix compliance). |
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204 | |
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205 | > Since Windows is not POSIX, |
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206 | |
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207 | Since when? Windows is POSIX ever since windows nt. |
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208 | |
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209 | > that makes Mac OS X the |
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210 | |
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211 | So windows isn't POSIX (while microsoft claims it is), while OS |
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212 | X obviously isn't (because it can't build software relying on a |
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213 | case-sensitive filesystem). |
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214 | |
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215 | You seem to be an extremely bad-informed OS X fanboy. |
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216 | |
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217 | The fact remains, that urxvt has no issue on POSIX systems. It apparemtly |
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218 | has an issue on OS X systems, so all talk about it being posix is just |
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219 | bullshit. |
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220 | |
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221 | -- |
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222 | The choice of a Deliantra, the free code+content MORPG |
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223 | -----==- _GNU_ http://www.deliantra.net |
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224 | ----==-- _ generation |
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225 | ---==---(_)__ __ ____ __ Marc Lehmann |
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226 | --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / pcg@goof.com |
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227 | -=====/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ |
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228 | |
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229 | |
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230 | |
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231 | ============================================================================ |
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232 | |
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233 | |
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234 | |
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235 | Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) |
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236 | In-Reply-To: <20081111133138.GA3121@schmorp.de> |
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237 | References: <09721773-3FFE-467A-9C04-2EADAAEE5026@macports.org> <20081111031142.GA2695@schmorp.de> <E537420B-EB90-4359-B2DE-85A8B79429B8@macports.org> <20081111133138.GA3121@schmorp.de> |
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238 | Content-Type: text/plain; |
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239 | charset=US-ASCII; |
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240 | delsp=yes; |
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241 | format=flowed |
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242 | Message-Id: <93F7B3AB-E0CD-4E5F-B086-571F169CF153@macports.org> |
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243 | Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit |
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244 | From: Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org> |
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245 | Subject: Re: rxvt-unicode make install on Mac OS X/case-insensitive filesystems |
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246 | Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:15:38 -0600 |
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247 | To: Marc Lehmann <schmorp@schmorp.de> |
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248 | |
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249 | On Nov 11, 2008, at 07:31, Marc Lehmann wrote: |
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250 | |
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251 | >> simple fix to make it work. Mac OS X is the second most popular |
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252 | >> operating |
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253 | >> system in the world [1], |
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254 | > |
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255 | > apple is atcively hurtign free sofwtare, I see no reason to waste |
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256 | > additional |
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257 | > time to help them. |
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258 | > |
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259 | >> behind Windows, so it is a good idea for you to |
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260 | >> support its default filesystem. |
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261 | > |
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262 | > That is very faulty logic. |
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263 | > |
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264 | >> I don't know much about what is or is not POSIX, but Apple says |
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265 | >> Mac OS X |
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266 | >> Leopard is an Open Brand UNIX 03 Registered Product, conforming to |
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267 | >> the |
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268 | >> SUSv3 and POSIX 1003.1 specifications [2]. |
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269 | > |
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270 | > Then there is no issue with urxvt, as POSIX *requires* a case- |
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271 | > sensitive |
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272 | > filesystem. |
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273 | > |
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274 | > So much for marketing bullshit from apple, OS X is as much posix as |
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275 | > windows (which also claims posix compliance). |
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276 | > |
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277 | >> Since Windows is not POSIX, |
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278 | > |
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279 | > Since when? Windows is POSIX ever since windows nt. |
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280 | > |
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281 | >> that makes Mac OS X the |
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282 | > |
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283 | > So windows isn't POSIX (while microsoft claims it is), while OS |
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284 | > X obviously isn't (because it can't build software relying on a |
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285 | > case-sensitive filesystem). |
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286 | > |
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287 | > You seem to be an extremely bad-informed OS X fanboy. |
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288 | > |
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289 | > The fact remains, that urxvt has no issue on POSIX systems. It |
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290 | > apparemtly |
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291 | > has an issue on OS X systems, so all talk about it being posix is just |
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292 | > bullshit. |
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293 | |
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294 | Marc, you're being remarkably rude to me, and it's uncalled for. I'm |
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295 | providing constructive feedback for your software and I don't |
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296 | understand why you're so hostile towards that, towards me and towards |
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297 | Mac OS X. I'm writing to you not to have a discussion about the |
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298 | relative merits or specifications of different operating systems, but |
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299 | in my capacity as manager of MacPorts, a package management system |
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300 | which aims to make it easier for Mac users to install open source |
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301 | software. As such, I have an interest in making software like yours |
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302 | work well on the Mac. Are you really opposed to that? Do you really |
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303 | want to actively exclude tens of millions of potential users? |
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304 | |
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305 | My apologies for my misinformation about Windows; I don't use |
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306 | Windows. I assumed it was not POSIX compliant based on a cursory |
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307 | Google search, the fact that it is not listed in the Wikipedia's list |
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308 | of fully POSIX compliant operating systems (whereas Mac OS X is) [1], |
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309 | and the fact that, if a case-insensitive filesystem is your criteria |
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310 | for POSIX compliance, Windows also uses a case-insensitive |
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311 | filesystem, doesn't it? I'm sure you can optionally use a case- |
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312 | sensitive filesystem on Windows, just like you can on Mac OS X, but |
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313 | as far as I know the default filesystem on Windows is case- |
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314 | insensitive, just like Mac OS X's. |
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315 | |
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316 | I don't know what else to tell you. If you have problems with the way |
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317 | Apple represents their operating system, you can take it up with |
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318 | them. But insulting me is not constructive. |
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319 | |
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320 | I request you apply my earlier patch to your sources to declare your |
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321 | Makefile targets as phony. It is a best practice, it helps Mac users, |
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322 | and it does not hinder others (if anything, it helps others, in a |
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323 | slight performance boost). |
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324 | |
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325 | -Ryan Schmidt, for the MacPorts project |
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326 | |
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327 | |
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328 | [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX#Fully_POSIX-compliant |
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329 | |
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330 | |
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331 | |
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332 | ============================================================================ |
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333 | |
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334 | |
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335 | |
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336 | Return-path: <root@schmorp.de> |
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337 | X-Envelope-To: macports@ryandesign.com |
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338 | X-AuditID: 11fe0d0a-a5b0fbb000000ef3-ba-49199f0e9508 |
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339 | Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:01:52 +0100 |
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340 | From: Marc Lehmann <schmorp@schmorp.de> |
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341 | To: Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org> |
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342 | Subject: Re: rxvt-unicode make install on Mac OS X/case-insensitive |
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343 | filesystems |
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344 | Message-ID: <20081111150152.GA3864@schmorp.de> |
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345 | References: <09721773-3FFE-467A-9C04-2EADAAEE5026@macports.org> <20081111031142.GA2695@schmorp.de> <E537420B-EB90-4359-B2DE-85A8B79429B8@macports.org> <20081111133138.GA3121@schmorp.de> <93F7B3AB-E0CD-4E5F-B086-571F169CF153@macports.org> |
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346 | MIME-Version: 1.0 |
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347 | Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii |
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348 | Content-Disposition: inline |
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349 | In-Reply-To: <93F7B3AB-E0CD-4E5F-B086-571F169CF153@macports.org> |
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350 | X-PGP: "1024D/DA743396 1999-01-26 Marc Alexander Lehmann |
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351 | <schmorp@schmorp.de> Key fingerprint = 475A FE9B D1D4 039E |
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352 | 01AC C217 A1E8 0270 DA74 3396" |
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353 | |
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354 | On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 08:15:38AM -0600, Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org> wrote: |
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355 | > Marc, you're being remarkably rude to me, and it's uncalled for. |
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356 | |
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357 | Where am I rude? By pointint out that you are bullshitting me? |
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358 | |
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359 | > I'm providing constructive feedback for your software and I don't |
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360 | > understand why you're so hostile towards that, towards me and towards |
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361 | > Mac OS X. |
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362 | |
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363 | I am hostile because I call your bluff? |
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364 | |
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365 | After tzhis, I am sure you can't be convinced by logics, as obviously, the |
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366 | apple marketing department rules your brain. |
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367 | |
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368 | Just a few facts for you, think about them: |
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369 | |
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370 | - windows has supported case-sensitive filenames in the *default* install |
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371 | since windows nt. |
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372 | - beginning with windows xp, *all* supported installs and configrations |
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373 | support case-sensitive filenames when using the posix api. |
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374 | |
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375 | This already completely obliterates your false claimt hat os x would be the |
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376 | #1 posix complaint operatign system. It gets better: |
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377 | |
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378 | The fact thyt you cannot compile urxvt on your OS X system means it isn't |
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379 | posix compliant. |
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380 | |
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381 | That's a simple fact. |
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382 | |
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383 | This doesn't mean OS X in general isn't POSIX compliant, but you have to ask |
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384 | yourself why *your* installation isn't. |
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385 | |
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386 | And the answer is that apple doesn't support POSIX configurations for OS X |
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387 | (and the default installs delivered by apple aren't). |
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388 | |
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389 | Which in turn means that the number of *actually* POSIX compliant |
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390 | configurations of OS X is about zero. |
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391 | |
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392 | This emans that OS X is probably one of the *least* used posix-compliant |
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393 | operating system, with a market share nearing zero. |
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394 | |
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395 | > writing to you not to have a discussion about the relative merits or |
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396 | > specifications of different operating systems, but in my capacity as |
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397 | > manager of MacPorts, a package management system which aims to make it |
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398 | > easier for Mac users to install open source software. |
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399 | |
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400 | That's bullshit. You are writing to me because you want to help apple |
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401 | increase their market share by offering superior sofwtare such as |
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402 | rxvt-unicode, and maybe to ease your life. |
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403 | |
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404 | It is trivial for macports to apply local workarounds for *local* bugs in the |
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405 | opertaing system or configuration, or to port urxvt to a non-POSIX operating |
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406 | system/environment. |
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407 | |
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408 | I have zero time to waste on supporting non-standards compliant systems, |
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409 | especially not due to bullshit arguments about market share, or about bugs |
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410 | in my sofwtare, when in fact the bug is easily verified to be in your |
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411 | setup or OS. |
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412 | |
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413 | > As such, I have an |
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414 | > interest in making software like yours work well on the Mac. |
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415 | |
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416 | I don't. |
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417 | |
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418 | > Are you really opposed to that? |
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419 | |
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420 | I'd love to be able to do something against in fatc, but that's |
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421 | irrelevant. rxvt-unicode does require a marginally POSIX-compliant |
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422 | enviornment, which OS X apparently fdoes not provide. |
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423 | |
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424 | > Do you really want to actively exclude tens of millions of potential |
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425 | > users? |
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426 | |
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427 | Well, you said OS X was posix compliant, so there really is no issue after |
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428 | all, as the Makefile *already* works fine in such an anvironment. |
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429 | |
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430 | > My apologies for my misinformation about Windows; I don't use Windows. I |
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431 | > assumed it was not POSIX compliant based on a cursory Google search, the |
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432 | > fact that it is not listed in the Wikipedia's list of fully POSIX |
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433 | > compliant operating systems (whereas Mac OS X is) |
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434 | |
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435 | Teaches you a lesson about not trusting wikipedia. I am supsrised it has |
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436 | this level of misinformation, but that's not really an excuse. |
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437 | |
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438 | > if a case-insensitive filesystem is your criteria for POSIX compliance, |
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439 | > Windows also uses a case-insensitive filesystem, doesn't it? |
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440 | |
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441 | Nope, NTFS, the only supported filesystem for the system since XP, is fully |
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442 | case-sensitive. |
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443 | |
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444 | As usual, windows is far ahead of OS X. |
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445 | |
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446 | > I'm sure you can optionally use a case-sensitive filesystem on Windows, |
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447 | > just like you can on Mac OS X, but as far as I know the default |
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448 | > filesystem on Windows is case-insensitive, just like Mac OS X's. |
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449 | |
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450 | The default install provides a fully case-sensitive filesystem (NTFS) |
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451 | for posix programs. Unlike OS X, which apparently doesn't even support |
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452 | case-sensitivity for e.g. / (where /dev resides). |
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453 | |
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454 | > I don't know what else to tell you. |
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455 | |
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456 | Nothing, you have nothing to tlel me, because your knowledge about these |
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457 | issues is obviously almost nonexistant. I suggest you get a perspective |
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458 | on these issues, and stop pestering sofwtare maintaienrs about "bugs" in |
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459 | their sofwtare which are just caused because your shitty OS only supports |
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460 | standards in marketing brochures as oppposed to the real world. |
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461 | |
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462 | > If you have problems with the way |
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463 | > Apple represents their operating system, you can take it up with them. |
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464 | |
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465 | So youc na come pester me by parroting marketing lies, and when I |
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466 | disagree, you suddenly aren't the right person to go to? |
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467 | |
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468 | *You* were misrepresentign the apple OS grossly in your mails, and of |
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469 | course, that's your fault and not apple's. And of coruse, *you* are |
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470 | responsible for what you claim, not apple. |
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471 | |
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472 | Moving the responsibility for your mails to apple is highly unfair to |
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473 | them. |
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474 | |
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475 | > But insulting me is not constructive. |
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476 | |
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477 | I am just pointing out facts. Your facts are bullshit, I didnt insult |
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478 | you, personally. I did point out that you don't understand what you are |
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479 | talking about, which is another fact, no? |
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480 | |
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481 | Facts might be insulting, yes, but then, you represented bullshit as if it |
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482 | were facts, and as such, I do feel insulted by your behaviour. |
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483 | |
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484 | > I request you apply my earlier patch to your sources to declare your |
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485 | > Makefile targets as phony. It is a best practice, it helps Mac users, |
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486 | > and it does not hinder others (if anything, it helps others, in a slight |
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487 | > performance boost). |
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488 | |
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489 | It wastes my time on a non-issue, and as such hinders my ability to write |
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490 | high quality sofwtare for *other* people. |
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491 | |
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492 | Your claim that it doesn't hinder others is only true if you completely |
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493 | disregard my work and my efforts. |
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494 | |
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495 | May I remind you that rxvt-unicode and most or all of the macports software |
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496 | is written by volunteers like me? Pestering me with bugs in your OS instead |
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497 | of fixing them or working around them greatly hinders me in doing this. |
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498 | |
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499 | You are hurting free software development. As such, you are certainly in the |
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500 | lowest class of people I recoginise. |
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501 | |
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502 | -- |
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503 | The choice of a Deliantra, the free code+content MORPG |
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504 | -----==- _GNU_ http://www.deliantra.net |
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505 | ----==-- _ generation |
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506 | ---==---(_)__ __ ____ __ Marc Lehmann |
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507 | --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / pcg@goof.com |
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508 | -=====/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ |
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509 | |
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510 | |
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511 | |
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512 | ============================================================================ |
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513 | |
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514 | |
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515 | |
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516 | Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) |
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517 | In-Reply-To: <20081111150152.GA3864@schmorp.de> |
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518 | References: <09721773-3FFE-467A-9C04-2EADAAEE5026@macports.org> <20081111031142.GA2695@schmorp.de> <E537420B-EB90-4359-B2DE-85A8B79429B8@macports.org> <20081111133138.GA3121@schmorp.de> <93F7B3AB-E0CD-4E5F-B086-571F169CF153@macports.org> <20081111150152.GA3864@schmorp.de> |
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519 | Content-Type: text/plain; |
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520 | charset=US-ASCII; |
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521 | delsp=yes; |
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522 | format=flowed |
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523 | Message-Id: <E3AA8D4D-86A7-45C0-8083-D887E07F3358@macports.org> |
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524 | Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit |
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525 | From: Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org> |
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526 | Subject: Re: rxvt-unicode make install on Mac OS X/case-insensitive filesystems |
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527 | Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 23:45:39 -0600 |
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528 | To: Marc Lehmann <schmorp@schmorp.de> |
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529 | |
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530 | On Nov 11, 2008, at 09:01, Marc Lehmann wrote: |
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531 | |
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532 | > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 08:15:38AM -0600, Ryan Schmidt |
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533 | > <ryandesign@macports.org> wrote: |
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534 | >> Marc, you're being remarkably rude to me, and it's uncalled for. |
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535 | > |
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536 | > Where am I rude? By pointint out that you are bullshitting me? |
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537 | > |
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538 | >> I'm providing constructive feedback for your software and I don't |
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539 | >> understand why you're so hostile towards that, towards me and towards |
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540 | >> Mac OS X. |
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541 | > |
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542 | > I am hostile because I call your bluff? |
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543 | > |
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544 | > After tzhis, I am sure you can't be convinced by logics, as |
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545 | > obviously, the |
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546 | > apple marketing department rules your brain. |
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547 | > |
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548 | > Just a few facts for you, think about them: |
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549 | > |
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550 | > - windows has supported case-sensitive filenames in the *default* |
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551 | > install |
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552 | > since windows nt. |
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553 | > - beginning with windows xp, *all* supported installs and |
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554 | > configrations |
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555 | > support case-sensitive filenames when using the posix api. |
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556 | > |
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557 | > This already completely obliterates your false claimt hat os x |
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558 | > would be the |
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559 | > #1 posix complaint operatign system. It gets better: |
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560 | > |
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561 | > The fact thyt you cannot compile urxvt on your OS X system means it |
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562 | > isn't |
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563 | > posix compliant. |
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564 | > |
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565 | > That's a simple fact. |
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566 | > |
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567 | > This doesn't mean OS X in general isn't POSIX compliant, but you |
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568 | > have to ask |
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569 | > yourself why *your* installation isn't. |
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570 | > |
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571 | > And the answer is that apple doesn't support POSIX configurations |
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572 | > for OS X |
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573 | > (and the default installs delivered by apple aren't). |
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574 | > |
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575 | > Which in turn means that the number of *actually* POSIX compliant |
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576 | > configurations of OS X is about zero. |
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577 | > |
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578 | > This emans that OS X is probably one of the *least* used posix- |
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579 | > compliant |
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580 | > operating system, with a market share nearing zero. |
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581 | > |
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582 | >> writing to you not to have a discussion about the relative merits or |
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583 | >> specifications of different operating systems, but in my capacity as |
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584 | >> manager of MacPorts, a package management system which aims to |
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585 | >> make it |
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586 | >> easier for Mac users to install open source software. |
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587 | > |
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588 | > That's bullshit. You are writing to me because you want to help apple |
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589 | > increase their market share by offering superior sofwtare such as |
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590 | > rxvt-unicode, and maybe to ease your life. |
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591 | > |
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592 | > It is trivial for macports to apply local workarounds for *local* |
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593 | > bugs in the |
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594 | > opertaing system or configuration, or to port urxvt to a non-POSIX |
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595 | > operating |
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596 | > system/environment. |
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597 | > |
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598 | > I have zero time to waste on supporting non-standards compliant |
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599 | > systems, |
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600 | > especially not due to bullshit arguments about market share, or |
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601 | > about bugs |
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602 | > in my sofwtare, when in fact the bug is easily verified to be in your |
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603 | > setup or OS. |
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604 | > |
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605 | >> As such, I have an |
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606 | >> interest in making software like yours work well on the Mac. |
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607 | > |
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608 | > I don't. |
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609 | > |
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610 | >> Are you really opposed to that? |
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611 | > |
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612 | > I'd love to be able to do something against in fatc, but that's |
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613 | > irrelevant. rxvt-unicode does require a marginally POSIX-compliant |
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614 | > enviornment, which OS X apparently fdoes not provide. |
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615 | > |
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616 | >> Do you really want to actively exclude tens of millions of potential |
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617 | >> users? |
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618 | > |
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619 | > Well, you said OS X was posix compliant, so there really is no |
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620 | > issue after |
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621 | > all, as the Makefile *already* works fine in such an anvironment. |
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622 | > |
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623 | >> My apologies for my misinformation about Windows; I don't use |
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624 | >> Windows. I |
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625 | >> assumed it was not POSIX compliant based on a cursory Google |
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626 | >> search, the |
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627 | >> fact that it is not listed in the Wikipedia's list of fully POSIX |
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628 | >> compliant operating systems (whereas Mac OS X is) |
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629 | > |
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630 | > Teaches you a lesson about not trusting wikipedia. I am supsrised |
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631 | > it has |
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632 | > this level of misinformation, but that's not really an excuse. |
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633 | > |
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634 | >> if a case-insensitive filesystem is your criteria for POSIX |
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635 | >> compliance, |
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636 | >> Windows also uses a case-insensitive filesystem, doesn't it? |
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637 | > |
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638 | > Nope, NTFS, the only supported filesystem for the system since XP, |
---|
639 | > is fully |
---|
640 | > case-sensitive. |
---|
641 | > |
---|
642 | > As usual, windows is far ahead of OS X. |
---|
643 | > |
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644 | >> I'm sure you can optionally use a case-sensitive filesystem on |
---|
645 | >> Windows, |
---|
646 | >> just like you can on Mac OS X, but as far as I know the default |
---|
647 | >> filesystem on Windows is case-insensitive, just like Mac OS X's. |
---|
648 | > |
---|
649 | > The default install provides a fully case-sensitive filesystem (NTFS) |
---|
650 | > for posix programs. Unlike OS X, which apparently doesn't even support |
---|
651 | > case-sensitivity for e.g. / (where /dev resides). |
---|
652 | > |
---|
653 | >> I don't know what else to tell you. |
---|
654 | > |
---|
655 | > Nothing, you have nothing to tlel me, because your knowledge about |
---|
656 | > these |
---|
657 | > issues is obviously almost nonexistant. I suggest you get a |
---|
658 | > perspective |
---|
659 | > on these issues, and stop pestering sofwtare maintaienrs about |
---|
660 | > "bugs" in |
---|
661 | > their sofwtare which are just caused because your shitty OS only |
---|
662 | > supports |
---|
663 | > standards in marketing brochures as oppposed to the real world. |
---|
664 | > |
---|
665 | >> If you have problems with the way |
---|
666 | >> Apple represents their operating system, you can take it up with |
---|
667 | >> them. |
---|
668 | > |
---|
669 | > So youc na come pester me by parroting marketing lies, and when I |
---|
670 | > disagree, you suddenly aren't the right person to go to? |
---|
671 | > |
---|
672 | > *You* were misrepresentign the apple OS grossly in your mails, and of |
---|
673 | > course, that's your fault and not apple's. And of coruse, *you* are |
---|
674 | > responsible for what you claim, not apple. |
---|
675 | > |
---|
676 | > Moving the responsibility for your mails to apple is highly unfair to |
---|
677 | > them. |
---|
678 | > |
---|
679 | >> But insulting me is not constructive. |
---|
680 | > |
---|
681 | > I am just pointing out facts. Your facts are bullshit, I didnt insult |
---|
682 | > you, personally. I did point out that you don't understand what you |
---|
683 | > are |
---|
684 | > talking about, which is another fact, no? |
---|
685 | > |
---|
686 | > Facts might be insulting, yes, but then, you represented bullshit |
---|
687 | > as if it |
---|
688 | > were facts, and as such, I do feel insulted by your behaviour. |
---|
689 | > |
---|
690 | >> I request you apply my earlier patch to your sources to declare your |
---|
691 | >> Makefile targets as phony. It is a best practice, it helps Mac users, |
---|
692 | >> and it does not hinder others (if anything, it helps others, in a |
---|
693 | >> slight |
---|
694 | >> performance boost). |
---|
695 | > |
---|
696 | > It wastes my time on a non-issue, and as such hinders my ability to |
---|
697 | > write |
---|
698 | > high quality sofwtare for *other* people. |
---|
699 | > |
---|
700 | > Your claim that it doesn't hinder others is only true if you |
---|
701 | > completely |
---|
702 | > disregard my work and my efforts. |
---|
703 | > |
---|
704 | > May I remind you that rxvt-unicode and most or all of the macports |
---|
705 | > software |
---|
706 | > is written by volunteers like me? Pestering me with bugs in your OS |
---|
707 | > instead |
---|
708 | > of fixing them or working around them greatly hinders me in doing |
---|
709 | > this. |
---|
710 | > |
---|
711 | > You are hurting free software development. As such, you are |
---|
712 | > certainly in the |
---|
713 | > lowest class of people I recoginise. |
---|
714 | |
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715 | Thank you for your time, it's been interesting. I'll add a note to |
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716 | the rxvt-unicode portfile that we should not contact you about it |
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717 | again. Have a nice day. |
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718 | |
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719 | -Ryan Schmidt, for the MacPorts project |
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